Treading dangerous water...

[crunchies0313]

Alright.. here goes...

I learned about the women's movement in school and always wondered why. I understand how you would want equal rights and equal pay...but for what cost?

I look at women now and what percent of them have passed through the barriers at work? All the barriers?

I love being treated specially because I am a woman, but times are changing and guys are really taking the "equal" to a whole new level. I don't want to be one of the guys, I want a door opened, manners, not hey dude.

Maybe signals got crossed, I am not sure. Maybe I am looking at it all wrong. I don't want to ruffle feathers, I just know that women are alot more emotional than men, and some jobs I don't think being emotional is a great thing ? I know a lot of the other members are older, and I was wondering if you had any real problems in the work place or anywhere else for that matter? Do you feel that the women's movement has made a good improvement for the future generations of women? Or has the ideas changed over the years for the worse?

[spasmo]

Personally, what I think of as being "dangerous waters" are when stereotypes are used such as " women are alot more emotional than men". While I am sure this statement is being made from actual observations, I have found that generalizations are often dangerous given there are usually exceptions to every rule. For example, in my workplace some of the more "high strung" and "diva-like" behaviors are found in the male population. This does not mean that I think that males are more emotional (than women), just that some of the men I happen to work with happen to be this way at work. I have no idea if they are also this way in other aspects of their lives... but at times they certainly this way at work. The key is finding the right person for the job REGARDLESS of gender (or any other measure).

I am in my early 40s... I am a respected leader at work, one of the girls, and I fit in with the guys (on my terms). These are all my roles they happen at the same time. I don't know how it used to be for women in the work place, but my guess is that it would not be as easy for me to be a respected leader in a field that has traditionally been dominated by males. For me, it is not my gender that is important in how I am treated at work (I expect that EVERYONE is going to be treated with respect)... it is a matter of knowing the subject matter and having the job skills and people skills that command respect... nothing to do with gender.

I am guessing that my views on this subject are possible largely because other women before me have trugged the gender wars out in the trenches. I believe that my reality in the workplace is a luxury I received thanks to the hard work, angst and frustration of others before me. I hope that I make contributions to the workplace for others who follow behind me.

[Marian Paroo]

Considering it was once legal to refuse a woman a job, just for being a woman, and than pay her less if you gave her a job, yes, I thinks the achievements of the movement outweigh not having a door held for you.

When I was a girl, girls couldn't have paper routes (my local paper), be on Little League teams (almost all over) and, what I bitterly remember, had to have a higher average than a boy to get into most colleges. I will never, never forgive the system that kept me out of the "college of my choice" because some girls quit to get married and have children, while a boy with a lower average and lower SAT scores could get in.

I hope I don't sound too rough and bitter, I've really made an effort to stay calm as I write this.

And since this is on the Work forum, I'm sticking to that side of the issue only.

[Kathy]

I think its a very good question. I know many women in their 50's today who have left the workplace that they worked so hard to enter in the 1960's....

In their choosing...they have chosen to stay home.

I'm approaching 50 and was raised in a family with working women. My mother and her mother worked outside the home as professionals with bachelors - masters degrees. My father's mother worked outside the home as a professional with a higher degree from johns hopkins.

This wasn't an issue in our family. We knew from early age that women were capable and equal to the workforce. This simply gave us the options of doing what we want: stay home if we choose or work if we choose.

Personally, I enjoy staying home. I have worked in corp America, in public service and in the home.

And while I appreciate the women's movement of the 60's, I find many of their issues misplaced.

And yes, I like the men in my life to be gentlemen.

[royallady]

OK here goes. I must say that the whole issue of women's Lib (if that is now politically correct) seems to be lost on me. I understand the equal pay for equal work and totally agree with that. But I just think that it has been taken too far. What is it about Men that we want to be. We are not men we are women and I do not agree with those that say we are the same… we are MORE emotional and that is genetics not a choice. We are mothers and in such are emotional beings. It is proven that most women make there day to day decisions based on emotions. Yes men are emotional and some more then women but remember we are the ones that populate this earth and therefore are the dominate of the species. And we should be treated as such. There is a reason there are male and females and I am not sure why the world would want just men in it. What a boring place that will be. So I say Be a woman and be **** proud of it.

Sorry just venting…. We really have to get over it. I am

[crunchies0313]

Marian,

VENT! I *was* asking for you honest opinion! I may look at things differently because I was not around when the women were really pushing the equality issues. I see things from a totally different point of view. My mom has always worked, and I was raised that you do work it is what you do, but now I am starting to look at things different. Im not lazy, I love working, but I also understand that there are certian jobs that I cannot do as a woman. As for the pay... I don't know I just think its all apart of the "old-school" values, and I really don't think it will change for every business. I think that people are always wanting more, what they have is never enough, so they set out to change, not thinking about what they would be losing.

[Texas-Ali]

Jessica,

I am one of the women that has passed through the barriers at work. I also believe deeply in equality between the sexes. Yes, men and women are different, biological fact. However, I am just as smart as ANY man. And I truly believe that if anyone else can learn a subject, I can too. I have worked for and earned the respect that I have in my job.

I grew up in the deep south, read, 15 years behind the rest of the US. Since we lived "In town" instead of on a farm, I was not allowed to do certain things because it was not "proper for a girl". Which means my mother told me I was too stupid to do certain things. Of course my mother always appended those conversations with "and we had to save money so your brother can go to college, he's very smart you know". But I was a daddy’s girl, so I would cry on his shoulder to try to get my way, he would pat me on the head and say of course your smart, but you are a girl and girls don't do those things. Girls I grew up with pretended to be stupid so guys would talk to them. I didn't. It made me so angry, if a guy was too stupid to keep up he was not worth my time. I certainly would not play dumb to make one happy. One of the smartest girls I knew in high school is a cashier at a grocery store. I feel so sorry for her, but she chose that life.

I find it insulting when someone tells me that they want their daughter to marry a great guy and raise babies. Ok, a sweet sentimental foolish thought. Get real!!! 50% of all marriages in the US end in divorce, then what do these sweet baby raising mommies do to feed their kids? The best thing any parent can give a child, male or female is an education, and teach them how to take care of themselves. Then if they find a mate that is dependable, they can adapt to what works best for them, but if they need to depend on themselves, they are capable.

When my husband died, everyone felt sorry for me but me. I was so busy I didn't have time to realize they were talking about me. I got a Pell grant, went to college at night, yes, while working full time, with three small kids, and the worlds best nanny. I graduated with honors. Yes, I worked very hard for what I have, and yes there are guys that do not work as hard as me, but it has paid off, I now make more money than the majority of my male counter parts. What does that mean for me? I, a single mom, own a beautiful home in a very privilaged neighborhood. My children have nice clothes and lots of good food. We go on annual vacations. We have a pool to swim in, and lots of extras that I could not afford if I had not worked so hard. My boys can afford to go to college with or without scholarships. And I can afford to take them with me to Russia and stay a few extra days to sight see.

When I first started, I was treated very differently because of the female issue. It took about two years to prove myself. Ten years later, I lead a staff of engineers, 5 guys, and I am treated with respect, and suprise, I don't have to give up my feminine side. I am the first stop when they don't know how to do something, not because I am a girl and they need a good cry, but because I am very good at what I do, and they need someone smart enough to give them an answer. I am sure part of it is the company I work for and the environment I am in, but I have no issues with the guys. I am not one of the guys, they go hunting together, and I have no desire to go shoot and sweat with them. I am sure that is ok for all of us, I doubt they would know what to do if the smart ‘guy’ at the office puked on their shoes. They think adopting a girl is a bit prissy and they humor me yacking about little girl clothes and trips to Russia and baby socks and cribs. But I also go camping and hiking with my boys, which they think is pretty ok for a girl.

When it comes to work, I am right there on top of my game, and it is obvious. I am at the point in my career that I turned down a very large promotion 3 months ago because I am comfortable, and enjoy the balance between my life and my job, it pays my bills with enough left over to enjoy some frills. The new job was entirely too many hours away from my boys, and not worth the personal cost to me. If one of my guys gets the same offer in a year or two, I will be thrilled for them. But they are not qualified yet.

I think that history has a way of showing what the author wants it to say, rather than the entire issue from a non-biased view. I am afraid that you missed out on a lot of the issues, and were told we wanted to be guys. Never did women want to be guys. Women want to be respected. Equal pay, equal rights to own property, equal respect. Don't treat me like I am stupid because I am girl, I will call you on it, and I am not nice when I do it, especially with a man. I don't want to go hunting or shower in the men’s locker room. In fact if I could justify in my mind spending 5k on having my breasts picked up and put back where they came from, I would be first in line, (Ok, that one may happen yet). Yes, I love getting dressed up and going out, and men open doors all the time, however, if I am there first or they have their hands full, I will also open it for them... it is a matter of respect. And yes, without all the women before me fighting for ALL of us, this would not be possible.

Count your blessings, you now have the opportunity to compete or not, if and how you see fit. Thanks to all of the pushing and prodding and marches, you won't be at work and get told, 'don't be silly, you are just a girl, you don't need to strain that pretty little head of yours, now come sit in my lap and I might be nice to you'. And just think, you don't even have to go hunting with them to prove you are 'man' enough.

[Canadian Girl]

This is such a good question, and one that is surfacing as a lot of issues... unforeseen issues, that came from this long fight for equality.

In the environment where I work, not only have women crossed the barriers: in a lot of areas, we've barged right through them and are now more successful than the men. For example, in the organization where I work, while "the big boss" is a man, all of his "deputy bosses (three of them) are women. For some men, it's now harder to break through into management. Why? because the rules have changed and women, naturally, tend to adapt better to change than men.

I'm almost 50 and I remember those days, in the 60's and 70's, when women had to fight so hard to get into the workplace. And, back in those days, the only jobs available were, often, at the clerical level. There even still was a need for Shorthand back then!!!!

Furthermore, even though I was at the same level as my male colleagues, it was, naturally, expected that the girls would do the typing, make coffee, etc... just because "we were better at it" than they were!!!

Don't get me wrong: I still appreciate gentlemen to no ends.. but I also appreciate those women who preceeded us and made sure, among other things, that women were "persons" (would you believe that, as late as in the early 1900's, women were not, legally, recognized as persons in canadian law? This meant that their husband could beat them and abused them, without any penalty.), were allowed to vote and were allowed to work at a good job and be paid the same as their male colleages

[Marian Paroo]

i just can't take the comments about bra burning! No bra was ever burned! A bra was chucked into a trash bin with a lot of other things.

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/burnbra.htm

I've never heard an African American denigrate the Civil Rights movement the way I've heard and hear women denigrate the Women's Movement.

[royallady]

i just can't take the comments about bra burning! No bra was ever burned! A bra was chucked into a trash bin with a lot of other things.

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/burnbra.htm

I've never heard an African American denigrate the Civil Rights movement the way I've heard and hear women denigrate the Women's Movement.
I am not sure you are reading the post correctly then, we are not denigrating the Women's Movement. We just do not agree with some of it. And I am sorry to say but there is a huge difference between women's rights and Civil Rights movement.

[DieNarrin]

I get frustrated when career women look down on women who want to stay home and raise babies. It's their choice. And if that's the guy that wants to stay home - good for him.

I could not ever be a stay at home Mom. I would go nuts. I think those women who take time out from their careers to raise a family are awesome. At the same time I wouldn't want to be criticized for not wanting to stay home. I hate the comments that you hear that the woman is cheating the child. I have seen some kids whose mom stays home all day and never interacts with them at all.

I love what I do and I often face barriers because of my sex. But I work around them and chip at their preconceived notions. I work in a career area that is mostly all men. I work with boards of directors who are mostly men - and old enough to be my grandfather (ok now more like my Dad's age). It is hard sometimes to get them to focus on what I am doing not what sex I am. But after awhile they do.

One of my clients used to call up my boss to check on what I was telling him. He was mortified when his boss told him to do the same thing when I was standing there and his boss couldn't see me. Busted! We laughed about it. And I mentioned that my boss always told me that he called. He was amazed I never said anything. I said why should I, I figured eventually you would get tired of making the call. And I knew my boss always backed me up. And if he had a different idea well lets look at it. I may be smart - but I don't know everything yet.

I keep hoping for a time when all of us have a choice and an opportunity to do what we want no matter what our sex, race or religion. It will happen. But heck we are all only human and sometimes we are stupid.

[windgoddess]

Jessica, you said:
"I also understand that there are certain jobs that I cannot do as a woman"
What jobs do you mean?

[crunchies0313]

Firefighting, some police work, anything the requires a lot of heavy lifting. I mean there are some..muscular women out there and so I guess there are exceptions. I am just taking the average woman.

[Marian Paroo]

Firefighting, some police work, anything the requires a lot of heavy lifting. I mean there are some..muscular women out there and so I guess there are exceptions. I am just taking the average woman.

I'm sure I saw women firefighters on the American news.

And as for lifting, I assume that the test should be can the applicant lift the whatever, without assumptionsl

I am rather annoyed that when I donate blood, I have to take a quick hemoglobin test, even though my last period was five years ago, and men don't! I mean I can understand it for a woman who is still menstruating...

[Votelady]

I live in a medium -sized town in Ohio. We have female professional fire-fighters in our fire department . One is a good friend and she is quite the average woman.

[windgoddess]

As a nurse, I work in what is considered traditionally a "woman's job". Probably it is considered this because of the caring component (physical and emotional). Ironically, however, it also involves very dirty work (nothing can be dirtier than manual evacuations), risky work (I have been punched in the face by a demented patient; I run the risk of contracting some awful infections if I cam not careful in my techniques), and lots and lots of heavy lifting (I have muscles that would put some men to shame - but am still a feminine woman). I have had to tell people that their loved one has died, laid out many dead people, and I have had to confront large aggressive people (I do not know what other "police work" that men could only do.)
I know that some women can do any "man's job" just as some men are very good at "women's work". May be the majority of us gravitate towards tasks that suit our masculine and feminine natures more but where we are more androgynous, we help share the load in society, come to understand the other sex better, and become more rounded human beings ourselves. Feminism should not be finished with (though I fear it is) while there are still women in the world who are held back by sexism - e.g. women who are not allowed to choose their job, their marriage partner, and must answer to their husbands - not to mention such scourges as female circumcision etc.
Hope I am not too heavy handed on this. I also regret the loss of good manners in modern western society - across both sexes. I am old fashioned in deploring the way in which young women are often aggressive and overtly sexual (as encouraged by pop stars). Respect in needed in huge measure in today's world.
Enough pontificating - really just my view.

[Marian Paroo]

I've always totally admired all the women in the health professional fields, as we call them here. Athough these days one sees, at least here, more and more men in them.

Living in the Middle East I can see how evil oppression of women can get.

[crunchies0313]

Blood is such a risky thing though. I don;t care how many tests need to be run, I know that when I need blood I dont want to worry about anything happening to me because of it. Its a simple test, no big deal.

[Marian Paroo]

Blood is such a risky thing though. I don;t care how many tests need to be run, I know that when I need blood I dont want to worry about anything happening to me because of it. Its a simple test, no big deal.

It's just that if the idea is I might have anemia because I'm still menstruating, it's kind of silly that I have to do the test when I tossed my last pad years ago.

I donate blood 3 times a year, and the last time I tested 14 for hemoglobin.

And I find that prick far worse than when they put in the big needle for taking the blood itself.

The scrawny chicken of a fellow next to me doesn't have to do the blood test, just because of his chromosomes!

[Canadian Girl]

This thread is raising such a lot of good questions... and questions that will need to be answered, eventually.

For instance, just because you've opted to be a career woman, it doesn't mean that you're a feminist and embrace everything about that movement. That movement was there for a reason, and it was extremist for a reason: there was time, not so long ago, where women had absolutely no rights, were not allowed to work if they were married and were paid less FOR THE SAME JOB because they were women. Something had to be done about this and the women who started what later became known as the feminist movement were the ground breakers. And that's a good thing.

Recognizing that the feminist movement did a lot for ensuring that women now can go into any job they so want, and be paid the same as a man, is not saying that ALL women should work. Far from there: it simply means that we appreciate all the work that was done :)

As a woman I could be a firefighter, a policewoman or a nurse, a teacher, a clerk. It's up to me, based on my likes and dislikes, my natural abilities and on the amount of effort I'm willing to put into getting there. And there are some policewomen I know who are feminine and petite!!! Choosing a non-traditional career doesn't mean you're a Tom-boy... far from there!!!

I also think that we've got to be very careful in what we wish for: nowadays, men are really not as likely to open doors for women or to give away their seat on the bus. That's because some men ended up having a hard time moving up the corporate ladder, simply because they'll not necessarily be the authomatic choice just because they're of the male gender. Also, some men have seen their offers of help turned down by overzealous feminists!!!

I still think there is a place for chivalry: a woman still is weaker than a man and still likes to be pampered. At the same time, men also like to be pampered and to have their efforts recognized :)

I guess that I'm of that inbetween generation who is appreciative of the work done by those courageous women but who also never really had to fight myself so am not quite ready to embrace, wholeheartedly, the feminist movement as it is.

[TessiNY]

I very much agree with Canadian Girl. I am 41 and caught in the middle. I am a dental assistant and have been for 20 years. Not a strenuous job, but a caring job. I chose this position because it is what I was interested in. Do I want to be a firefighter, policeman, lawyer? No. If you do, by all means, persue.
Should I quit work tomorrow to stay home and raise my family, would that make me less of a woman? I think not but somewhere along the line, the so called feminist seem to have forgotten it was about being able to choose. We wanted the option to persue politics, sports, corporate positions, high ranks in the military or greater education. But we also wanted the option of remaining at home to raise our families and support our spouses, provide good life skills to our kids.
Instead we have created a circle of finger pointing. Men aren't chivalrous because God forbid they open a door for the over the top feminist who lets the man have it only to be crabbed at for not opening it for the women who wants that kindness. I've watched in silence many times when my husband has said Ma'am to women only to be informed that is not appreciated. He does it because he was raised by a mother who made sure he respected women, not as some kind of demeaning comment. There are several examples and I could go on all day. Employed women look down their noses, stay at home moms complain at the lack of working moms at PTA.
My point is simply that we need to accept each other regardless of our choices. I am trying to raise my son right but I am not even sure what to teach him.

[Canadian Girl]

Here's a perfect example of how much remains to be done for women to really be treated as men's equals: The Olympics... specifically: Hockey

I am canadian and hockey is our national sport. Canada had two teams competing in Hockey: a men's team that didn't make it to the medal rounds and a women's team that won GOLD :woohoo:

Instead of being proud of our women's team and just letting the men's team be, canadian press actually blamed the women: they scored too many goals, set the bar too high, are destroying the sport, blah, blah, blah!!!

And the men's defeat actually made front page, before the four athletes, all female, who'd won medals fpr Canada that day :grr:

I think that until women are recognized for their value, there will always be a need for advocates to fight for us!!!

[Marian Paroo]

Here's a perfect example of how much remains to be done for women to really be treated as men's equals: The Olympics... specifically: Hockey

I am canadian and hockey is our national sport. Canada had two teams competing in Hockey: a men's team that didn't make it to the medal rounds and a women's team that won GOLD :woohoo:

Instead of being proud of our women's team and just letting the men's team be, canadian press actually blamed the women: they scored too many goals, set the bar too high, are destroying the sport, blah, blah, blah!!!

And the men's defeat actually made front page, before the four athletes, all female, who'd won medals fpr Canada that day :grr:

I think that until women are recognized for their value, there will always be a need for advocates to fight for us!!!

Oh, I know what you're saying, girl!

Same goes here for women's sports. + their locker rooms at the stadiums are really crummy, but a decade ago sometimes there wasn't even hot water.

We have some really great sportswomen here, but they are finally getting close to the time and the attention they deserve.

By the way, I am crazy with love for Canada. When I was four (still living in the States) I had an operation at Sick Kids that wasn't being done in the USA yet. Without them I would have either been in a wheelchair, had my leg amputated or at best had to wear a brace all my life.

Thanks! :thankyou:

[Carmen]

I know a lot of the other members are older, and I was wondering if you had any real problems in the work place or anywhere else for that matter? Do you feel that the women's movement has made a good improvement for the future generations of women?
Yes, I am one of the <sigh> older members here, and in answer to your questions, here are my observations:

I have never had any significant problems in the workplace or in life in general, due to the fact I am a woman. My peers who have the motivation, intelligence, and drive to succeed, in areas ranging from business, to education, to politics, to performing arts, to entrepreneurship, to medicine, to...everything else...have reached their goals...whether they are men or women. I believe that roadblocks for women in their quest for success in their chosen field have, and continue to be, diminshing. I have female friends who are high-profile attorneys, top officers of Fortune 500 companies, esteemed medical doctors, successful business owners, and deans of major universities.

I don't know if it's the Women's Movement, a general enlightenment, equal opportunity employment laws, or something else. All I know is that success in any field can be achieved, regardless of your sex.

[Marian Paroo]

I don't know if it's the Women's Movement, a general enlightenment, equal opportunity employment laws, or something else. All I know is that success in any field can be achieved, regardless of your sex.

It's the Women's Movement, and thank you for using a more respectful name for that, not some of the cutesy and / or snide names sometimes used.

There are no free lunches, the "establisment" didn't just decide one day that "golly, gee, we weren't being very fair, let's start being fair today!"

It's easier for everyone to achieve success today, but "easier" is still a relative term, plenty of inequality still out there.

[Carmen]

It's easier for everyone to achieve success today, but "easier" is still a relative term, plenty of inequality still out there.
You are absolutely correct, particularly on a global scale. I happen to reside in an area of the USA, in one of our more progressive states, and I certainly need to be reminded that circumstances in regions other than mine are dramatically "behind the times" in this regard.

[GirlyGirl]

I very much agree with Canadian Girl. I am 41 and caught in the middle. I am a dental assistant and have been for 20 years. Not a strenuous job, but a caring job. I chose this position because it is what I was interested in. Do I want to be a firefighter, policeman, lawyer? No. If you do, by all means, persue.
Should I quit work tomorrow to stay home and raise my family, would that make me less of a woman? I think not but somewhere along the line, the so called feminist seem to have forgotten it was about being able to choose. We wanted the option to persue politics, sports, corporate positions, high ranks in the military or greater education. But we also wanted the option of remaining at home to raise our families and support our spouses, provide good life skills to our kids.
Instead we have created a circle of finger pointing. Men aren't chivalrous because God forbid they open a door for the over the top feminist who lets the man have it only to be crabbed at for not opening it for the women who wants that kindness. I've watched in silence many times when my husband has said Ma'am to women only to be informed that is not appreciated. He does it because he was raised by a mother who made sure he respected women, not as some kind of demeaning comment. There are several examples and I could go on all day. Employed women look down their noses, stay at home moms complain at the lack of working moms at PTA.
My point is simply that we need to accept each other regardless of our choices. I am trying to raise my son right but I am not even sure what to teach him.

Thank you, Theresa! There's no need for me to write anything....you wrote mine for me...or should I just say "Ditto?"

[spasmo]

I agree TOTALLY! We will be there when we (as a society) quit judging other women's choices about working or staying home raising kids. What I think is important (and should be celebrated) is that WE NOW HAVE SOME CHOICES! There are still may things that we have to work on... we should not be spending valuable resources making people justify their choice that they had the right to make.

Thank you Woman's Movement!